Today host Holly Chen chats with Ally Cruz. Ally is a Trango Grassroots Athlete and a USAC Level 3 Routesetter with a decade of climbing experience. Her routesetting career began at her university’s climbing wall and quickly graduated to a commercial setting job at Edgeworks Climbing and Fitness in Seattle, Washington. From there, she bounced to Utah, back to Edgeworks, and eventually settled in her current position as Assistant Headsetter at the Seattle Bouldering Project Poplar gym. She has set and chiefed for many USAC-sanctioned comps and most recently set for the Vail Citizens event and helped with the Vail NACS as well. Ally has also set for notable affinity comps, such as Crux Fest and Impact. Outside of climbing, Ally is a well-rounded outdoorswoman; she loves mountain biking and surfing.
In today’s episode, Holly and Ally take a nuanced look at tokenization. They discuss the signs that someone is being tokenized, the unseen harms of tokenization, and how it can pigeonhole setters into roles that limit their progression and professional development. Ally is a real trooper as she and Holly dive into a vulnerable topic about how tokenization can lead minorities to perceiving other minorities as competition, rather than support. But they do turn the topic around to the bright side and discuss tangible tips that setters, headsetters and chief routesetters can employ to make sure tokenization does not happen on their teams. And if you’re wondering what tokenization has to do with Vans shoes, be sure to listen to the full episode below.
Thank you Trango and EP Climbing for your support!
And thank you Devin Dabney for your music!
Timestamps
00:00 – Intro
05:27 – What Is Tokenism?
08:01 – Why Is Tokenism a Bad Thing?
10:27 – Knowing If You’re Being Tokenized
13:57 – Tokenization and Self-Perception
17:45 – Breaking Out of the Pigeonhole
21:56 – Leaning Into Fear
28:32 – Feeling Pigeonholed
30:46 – Body Size Tokenism
33:41 – Tokenism and Competition
40:05 – Not Feeling Competition
44:46 – Ensuring You Are Not Tokenizing
53:18 – Ally’s Routesetting Shoe Experience
01:00:46 – Ally’s Dream Routesetting Shoe
01:02:09 – Closing
Abridged Transcript
…I’m wondering how you define tokenization in the setting context and how you see it manifest in our industry?
Yeah, I’ll just start off by saying tokenization applies to really any minority group in an industry. My experience is being a queer Hispanic woman in routesetting. So, I just want to say I’m speaking on that experience. I’m not trying to speak for everybody; these are the things that I felt. As we continue to evolve our industry, professionalism, etc., we have started trying to make sure that we are more inclusive, which usually looks like making sure we have a girl or a person of color on our routesetting team. And that was what we thought equality and diversity looked like. We didn’t quite understand that a lot of people were just doing that for show and that also trying to get equality and diversity on a team needs to go a step further. We don’t just pull one person to say, “Hey, we did it,” right? We need teams that are actually well-rounded. And usually, that’s going to mean more than just one girl.
…So, why is tokenization a negative thing?
Tokenization is the idea that we’re not necessarily trying to create this diversity because we think it’s what’s best; we’re creating this diversity because it’s what looks best. So, having this token person on your team, you’re showing that you’re doing the right things, but what actually happens is that you’re bringing that person in, now they’re the only person that’s not like everybody else on the team. And a lot of times the team that has brought you in because you’re supposed to be this person who’s a little bit different doesn’t actually listen to you, which I think can often be more harmful than just being transparent about what’s happening.
…How do you know if you are being tokenized?…
…I’ve had people tell me, “You got hired because you’re a woman.” So, that’s usually a pretty clear indicator that you’re being tokenized, especially if it’s the people in charge who are letting you know that. But most scenarios, I would argue, are not so black and white. I think we’ll get into this later about how this connects to imposter syndrome. But if you feel like people are searching you out and they really want to use your image and your likeness, but they don’t want to listen to you, there’s probably a really good chance that you are being tokenized.
…What are some examples of negative self-talk or just negative self-perception that can happen when someone is being tokenized or perceived to be tokenized?
I think this leads into what I was trying to say before about imposter syndrome. You may be already feeling insecure, like, “Did I really deserve this opportunity?” And I just want to say the answer is yes, you did deserve it. But we feel like, “Well, am I really as qualified as this person?” or “I see this person on Instagram, and I’ve seen them at other comps…how did I get this role and they didn’t?” And I think that can lead us into a really negative spiral. And I can’t make people think otherwise, but you deserve the spot, and you deserve the spot not for your identity, but because you are a phenomenal human. I have met so many people who feel like they didn’t deserve this spot, and they felt like they only got it because of their gender identity or what they looked like. And after working with those people, my takeaway every time is you got the spot because you’re an amazing human, and you’re way more fun to work with than most of these people. And you’re just a phenomenal team player. That’s why you’re here. And maybe it isn’t because you climbed V12+, but the value that you add to this team and what you contribute is so much more than your comp experience or your climbing ability.
…So, going back to that pigeonholed moment, how does that make you feel? What does pigeonholing do to the person who is being pigeonholed and tokenized?
It’s very demoralizing, right? Like, if I say, “Oh, Holly, I would love for you to come set my regionals,” and you’re like, “Oh my God, that is so cool.” And then you get out here and I’m like, “Oh, okay. I just want you to set U13 because you’re little,” and you’re like, “Oh, cool. I thought I had this really cool opportunity to come try different things and learn and grow, and you just want me to do the one thing that maybe no one else wants to do, but you think I’ll be good at.” I mean, it’s tough, right? And those are the moments too where you’re like, “Oh, she really didn’t bring me here because she wants to listen to my opinion.” I mean, I don’t know how else to say it. It feels bad…
…Tokenizing setters and tokenization, in general, can lead to some minorities perceiving other minorities as competition rather than support. Can you dive into that a little bit for me? Why does that happen? What kind of environmental factors cause that to happen?
…I started routesetting in the world of: “We got to bring that one girl in so the team’s not only guys.” And now I currently set with two other women who are great. I have done events where there’s another person who is similar to me in a lot of ways. And what I battle with and what I had a really hard time with when that started becoming the case was feeling like that other person is my competition. So, say, Holly and I get assigned to a team. My first thoughts are still currently and have been: “Is she stronger than me? Are they going to like her better? Is she better at this thing than me?” And I’m not saying don’t have those thoughts, because I don’t necessarily think that’s possible. But I think just recognizing I have come from this place where there only gets to be one person who looks like me, so the other person who looks like me is my immediate competition to the next event or the next job, and [instead] just saying, “Holly is like me and Holly could be my new best friend…”
…How do you make sure that you are not tokenizing someone, but at the same time you want them on your crew?
I think trying to create as open of a candidate pool as possible, right? You don’t go and you’re like, “Oh, I hired my five best bros and I have one more spot, let’s find a girl to fill it.” You go like, “Oh, I’m going to send an open application, be upfront about what we offer.” And then ideally you get a diverse pool of applicants, and then from that pool you pick the people who are actually best for the job, not the people that you want to be buddy-buddy with. And then on top of that, if I think that there’s a really cool qualified female candidate or something, I don’t think it’s fair to just give them the job because of who they are. But what I’m going to do is make sure that they know the job exists. I’m going to let them know, “Hey, this is the application,” and encourage them to write something thoughtful when they apply. And that by no means guarantees the job. But what I feel like I can legally and appropriately do is make sure that people who have skill sets that I love and add something to the team are very aware of this job posting I’m trying to do…
…Can you design me your dream routesetting shoe? What features does it have?
Yeah. As a classic routesetter, it obviously has to be all black or gray. It should have sticky rubber, but it should have tread, so that when Holly walks out in the winter, she doesn’t die. And I don’t know that it needs a whole lot more than that. It needs to have a little slip-on-heel thing, so that when I throw my shoes on after forerunning and I don’t want to put them on all the way, the back can crush down. There needs to be a little pull tab for the heel…
Holly grew up in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Now she lives in Denver where she reports, writes and routesets. Beyond the Climbing Business Journal, her writing has been published by Alpinist Magazine, Climbing Magazine, Gym Climber and Sharp End Publishing. Holly’s motto has always been: “keep it interesting.”
Read our interview with Holly: Storytelling Through Movement
